Cassandra and the Aspie: Marriage and Asperger’s Syndrome
April 9, 2008 by adifferentvoice
I’m trying to finish a post on Russian painting, but it seems stuck. In the meantime, I wanted to write about this …
According to widely-quoted statistics, somewhere between 1 in a 100 and 1 in a 250 people have Asperger’s Syndrome. A recent, as yet unpublished, piece of research at Cambridge University puts the figure at 1 in 58*.
Asperger’s Syndrome is sometimes otherwise called “high functioning autism” - those with Asperger’s Syndrome (often called “Aspies”, just as the syndrome is shortened to “Asperger’s”) do not show the same developmental indications as those with full-blown autism and, almost by definition, have an intelligence well above average if measured using the traditional IQ scale. The vast majority of these people are male. Professor Simon Baron Cohen characterises them as being very good “schematisers” and occupying one end of a spectrum, at the other end of which are the “empathisers”. The vast majority of empathisers are women.
Given all of this, it seems reasonable to assume that a pool of men, all of whom have IQs above, say, 130, will contain a sizeable number of men with Asperger’s syndrome. Men usually measure higher than women on traditional IQ tests, so it seems reasonable to assume that almost all women measuring, say, 130 on an IQ test would be schematisers, or have a degree of Asperger’s syndrome.
Not all men and women with Asperger’s will marry. Marriages with Aspies tend to fall into two camps. First there are those Aspies who marry other Aspies. Secondly, there are those Aspies who marry those who are “neuro-typical” or not Asperger’s. This is often a marriage of opposites where the strengths of one are complemented by the strengths of the other, or the weaknesses of one may be compensated for by the strengths of the other. Neuro-typical partners are often very empathetic but are still likely to have high IQs as they would be unlikely to interest the Aspie otherwise.
Because of the circles I move in, I know what seems like a huge number of men (but also women), with Aspergers, several of whom have received formal diagnoses from Professor Baron Cohen. The fact that they have Aspergers often comes to light when they have children. Aspergers is a highly hereditary condition (apparently). Often adults with Aspergers have learnt to fit into neuro-typical society, but their offspring have yet to learn and so the behavioural manners of the adult are magnified in the child.
I remember a philosophy class when, to the horrified silence of the rest of the class, I suggested that all babies should have a brain scan before their first birthday to discover whether or not they had Aspergers, and then should be cared for and educated accordingly. I actually wasn’t joking, but my comment was provoked by the misery of so many of my female friends. These friends all seemed to be abandoning their marriages, usually for a man who was empathetic. They all described living in an emotional desert, receiving no affection and no intimacy. Yet their husbands were good men, devoted to their families and hardworking, if more than usually interested in arranging huge classical music collections alphabetically, or playing “Dungeons and Dragons” or achieving world wide acclaim for their esoteric mathematics.
Researchers in Sweden believe that early intervention can promote better outcomes for children with autism. Babies in the Uppsala Babylab are being wired up so that their brain patterns can be followed. Similar studies on infants are being carried out in London.
I move in circles where most of the men have very high IQs, and I have chosen female friends who have high IQs too. Some of these women probably have Aspergers, but a proportion do not. This second neuro-typical high functioning proportion tends to be married to men with similar or higher IQs. A significant number of these women are, therefore, married to men with Aspergers.
One odd thing about Aspies and love is that Aspies appear to function quite normally when they are “in love”. This period typically lasts about two years. After that the real work of “loving” as opposed to “being in love” starts. The Aspie does not know what “love”, outside the obsessional interest of being in love, means.
He will typically become immersed in his special interest - often his work - and will be disinterested in the minutiae of everyday life. He will have fixed ideas about things and will respond badly to being asked to do something that does not correspond to these fixed ideas. Typically he will not be in the slightest bit snobbish. He will typically have a very strong sense of fairness, though this sense of fairness is abstract. By abstract, I mean as it applies to other people, other than himself. Typically he will not be able to see why he should not do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. Typically he will not value possessions, needing very little. He will have almost no interest in clothes and will prefer them to be functional and comfortable rather than smart. He will only want what he actually needs to survive and will not see the point of anything else. He will typically not be interested in earning large sums of money - for he has no need of it. He will typically seem very pure and not of this world. He may have a tendency to take things literally, unless he has learnt to interpret phrases correctly. He may be fascinated with words, and very skilled at foreign languages. He will typically not hold a grudge, and will typically not be jealous. But he is not jealous because jealousy is tied up with preference and preference with love, and he is not concerned with that. He does not understand love as a “going out” feeling. He is more likely to understand love as “respect”. He will typically like rules, and be happy if they are followed. He will typically dislike holidays and leaving home. He will typically enjoy spending a lot of time by himself, away from other people. He will typically have been bullied at school. He will typically not have excelled at sports, though he may be able to recite all the winners of every football competition since the game was invented. He will typically be not quite sure what the point of women is, except to have his babies and bring them up. He will typically not imagine that she has any emotional needs, and will typically not see the point of wasting money on useless or decorative or fragrant presents or adornments. He will typically be close to his mother. He will typically have only a very small number of friends, and will share interests rather than feelings with them. He will typically always tell the truth, and speak his mind with no regard for the hurt the truth may cause: this is both a boon and a curse. He will speak a different language which neurotypical people rarely grok.
He will usually be a very loyal friend, though you may not hear from him very often, and he will not know how to share what has been happening to him. He will usually feel lonely sometimes, despite wanting to be alone, and will be devastated if those who he has high regard for disappear from his life but he will be unlikely to know what he should do about it. He may have bouts of anger born of frustration. He is likely to have periods of depression. Left to his own devices, on his own terms, he can be very happy with very little. Pushed to behave like a neuro-typical person, he will typically distance, and become very difficult. But then, so would a neuro-typical person asked to behave like someone with Asperger’s. He will have his own, unique character, and be shaped by his birth order and circumstances just like any other child would have been.
All of this is likely to produce confusion in his wife or partner. On the one hand she will know him to be loyal, good, honest. On the other hand she will experience him as being inside a glass ball. However hard she knocks on the glass she cannot really get his attention, cannot really connect with him. He will not know how to soothe her, or actively listen to her, he will not be able to put himself in her shoes. He will not do empathy, though he might, if she is sad enough, feel sorry for her as he would for a wretched animal. Psychologist have grouped together a basket of symptoms that such women often show, and have called it the Cassandra Phenomenon. The basket of symptoms is so called because the woman will rarely be believed when she describes the cause of her desolation: a romantic partnership demands a level of intimacy that no other relationship or friendship does, and so families and friends may not be aware of the deficit. It is easy to be judgmental when these women give up knocking on the glass and find emotional intimacy elsewhere. But these women are often not aware of the manifestations of Aspergers syndrome. Even if they are, it is a lot to ask of a woman, to live her life without emotional intimacy. Monkies wither away and die in similar circumstances. Simon Baren Cohen calls those women who stay with their Aspie husbands “saints”.
I often think that Christ (absent the miracles) may have been an Aspie. The internet was developed by Aspies for Aspies. At least, only Aspies would find it a truly rewarding form of communication. It suits them perfectly since there are no facial expressions or body language to read (they cannot read them very well, so better not to have the potential to misread them), and it also allows them time to process the speech they receive before they have to respond. This is true of emails, true of instant messaging (which need not be very “instant”) and comments on blogs. In my experience Aspies do not tend to be prolific bloggers. If they have their own blog it will usually only feature occasional posts. They may, however, be quite prolific commenters with a tendency to appear troll-like if they are not careful.
One of the most well-known writers about high-functioning autism is a woman called Temple Grandin. She is an expert on the industrial handling of livestock, but is also known for having invented a machine that will hug her. She writes this about the brains of those with autism and Asperger’s:
Autopsies of autistic, Asperger’s, and normal brains by Margaret Bauman and her colleagues reveal that in both autism and Asperger’s there is immature development of the cerebellum, amygdala, and hippocampus. Small cells are packed tightly in these immature parts of the brain, signifying true immature development, not damage or atrophy. Brains from people with autism are more immature in hippocampus development than are Asperger’s brains, which may help explain the cognition problems we see in low-functioning autism. The situation is reversed for the amygdala, a part of the brain that processes emotion. Here, the Asperger’s brain is often more abnormal than the autistic brain. Could the more normal hippocampus preserve the cognitive function in Asperger’s, with the less normal amygdala causing the social problems?
Corroboration comes from brain scan studies showing that people with Asperger’s or high-functioning autism process emotional information differently than do normal subjects. The British autism researcher Simon Baron-Cohen has done functional MRI studies indicating that normal people activate the amygdala to judge the expression in another person’s eyes, but people with Asperger’s call on fronto-temporal regions of the brain. It is true that brain scan studies show less clear-cut results in terms of differences in amygdala size than do autopsies, but this may result from the subjects’ positioning in the scanner, from gender, or from differences in diagnostic criteria. In 1999, Elizabeth Aylward and her colleagues at the University of Washington School of Medicine found that in male non-mentally retarded autistic adolescents and young adults, the amygdala was significantly smaller compared to normals. But a British study by Matt Howard and his colleagues showed that high-functioning autistics had a larger abnormal amygdala. A third study, by Mehmet Haznedar and Monte Buchsbaum, showed no differences. Possibly the differences among these studies could be explained by differences in the criteria used to diagnose the subjects. Also, a brain autopsy is more accurate than a brain scan on a living person. Brain autopsy research has shown that both Asperger’s people and the highest functioning people with autism have a small amygdala; in cases of low-functioning people, by contrast, the amygdala is more normal and the hippocampus more abnormal.
More recently, a study by Haznedar revealed that in the brain of the high-functioning autistic or Asperger’s person, the circuit between the anterior cingulate in the frontal cortex and the amygdala is not completely connected. As a result, people with autism or Asperger’s have decreased metabolism in the anterior cingulate.
These brain studies demonstrate that the social deficits in autism and Asperger’s are highly correlated with measurable biological differences. But the question remains: When does a difference in the size of a certain brain region become an abnormality, instead of just a normal variation? If I selected 100 people at random from a large corporation or at an airport and scanned their brains, I would find a range of differences in the size and activation level of their amygdalas. It is likely that brain scan results from this normal cross section of the public could be closely correlated with tests that evaluate sociability and social skills. Conducting this experiment on the general public would show that normal brain variation could be measured. Furthermore, people tend to choose careers that they are good at, and I predict that there would be a high correlation between a person’s job and the characteristics of the amygdala. Out of the 100 hypothetical people from a large corporation whose brains were scanned, the technical people in the computer department would probably show less activation in their amygdalas compared to the highly social salesman in the marketing department.
The rest is here.
Babies
Uppsala Babylab
Centre for Brain and Cognitive Development, Birkbeck College, University of London
Other sites
The Asperger Marriage Site
Alone Together: Making an Asperger Marriage work - if you read nothing else, read this …
National Autistic Society: Partners
Radio Four, Home Truths, An Asperger Marriage
Families of Adults Affected by Asperger’s Syndrome (FAAAS)
On-line Asperger Syndrom Information and Support (OASIS)
*A report of the research, published in the Guardian, has been removed from the newspaper’s website. The report said that some of the team of researchers believed that there was a link between the MMR vaccine and autism, but Professor Simon Baron Cohen has since distanced himself from their views.
See also my earlier posts: “The Space Between: Mind the Gap”; Asperger’s Test; Austistic Traits and Testosterone
Is it possible for me to reprint the Asperger’s article and give credit to whoever wrote it. If I pass this on to professionals, I need to substantiate where it came from and don’t wish to pass it on without permission.
Thanks.
Muffin Lady
Muffin Lady, feel free, though these are only my thoughts as a result of my own observations, and I am not a professional!
You sound as though you have lived this, not just observed it. My ex-husband has AS and you have described it perfectly. Thank you.
Jude.
A Different Voice: I am ‘unworldly’ in the ways of the internet, having come to it late. Your collection of ‘comments’, your choice of subject matter, leaves me with a curiosity which obviously will not be satisfied; they are very eclectic. Your ‘article’ on Aspergers was informative and written without malice, in fairness to both the Aspie and the NT. It is one of the best descriptions that I’ve read regarding AS & CADD. The internet does not serve the curious person well, does it.
Muffin Lady
Jude H and Muffin Lady, thanks for your comments. It is always nice to know that something I have written has chimed with someone else. In a way, I regret the need to talk about Aspies and Neuro-typical persons, to use labels to describe people who are infinitely more complicated than any description we might try to make of them. The problem arises because each person imposes their idea of normality on other people, and expects the other person to conform to it, and is disappointed/devastated/unfulfilled/left wanting by the inability of the other person to meet their needs. I speak a different language to a lot of men and women I know, and there is no dictionary to be the interface between us (wouldn’t that be a good idea?). I think I’m a lot better at translating, but it will probably always remain a conscious rational effort rather than the instinctive understanding I share with people who think like me. Differences are exciting, however.
Muffin Lady, you’re right - the internet does not serve the curious person well in some senses. I always want to know more about the people I engage with, to satisfy my curiousity. On the other hand, type almost anything into Google and you’ll find something somebody else has written about it, and that is wonderful for my curiousity. For instance, I discovered that lots of other people had liked the same Russian painting I liked at the Royal Academy exhibition (next post), but that the (right wing) Spectator thought it “gaudy”. I enjoyed that.
Jude - I wanted to add that I don’t think my husband has Asperger’s though, like most men, he shows some similar traits (prefers socialising around an activity, prefers facts, and so on); he can empathise and is very social. I think that both of us may have grown up surrounded by Aspies, either at home or at school. My husband says he just went from one Aspie nest to another, which is a good way to put it (he was a scholar at a highly academic all boys boarding school). I went to a selective all girls grammar school, full of intelligent girls, more than a few of whom were “male” in almost every respect. You can imagine that if life amongst Aspies was your experience, you might have some making up to do. Fortunately both of us have the ability to look at our experience from the outside, and see patterns, and to make up for deficits… We do, however, continue to have many friends with Asperger’s traits, and the English bar is replete with examples (my husband is a barrister), as are Oxford and Cambridge University (where my husband studied).
Ah, a Different Voice, you wrote with too much feeling and understanding not to have been exposed to Aspergers and I appreciate your sharing this with the world of the internet. Living with siblings or parents with AS I believe may be different to living with it as a spouse. The ‘normal’ as in what we normally hope to experience loving someone else, isn’t there for us. As spouses, we are more often than not the forgotten voice, the unheard voice, in this relationship, not believed for what we believe to be true and what we can see, for these AS spouses can be clever at hiding their inner selves; the selves we see daily in our marriage. I’ve learned to, in some instances, think as someone would with Aspergers but for the life of me, I cannot cross into their world, which to me, is very two-dimensional.
Muffin Lady
Muffin Lady, I think your curiousity will have to remain unsatisfied …
I am quite sure that those with Asperger’s do not experience their life as two-dimensional since they have never known anything else. The collision of the two worlds creates the potential for both sides to be frustrated. I, for example, have spent most of my life feeling stupid because I don’t think in an Asperger’s way, stupid because I cannot see the point of certain music, stupid because I sometimes allow myself to be overcome by my emotions, because I flit from one thing to another, because I like beautiful things, because I like cushions and candles. Someone with Asperger’s would, I guess, feel equally stressed and depressed about being asked to conform to the standards of a world he has never experienced, and inevitably failing …
I feel enormous compassion for those with Asperger’s but that is probably because I do not depend on them for emotional fulfullment, I do not need anything from them - quite different from the relationship a NT spouse would naturally expect from her spouse.
I think it it possible to bridge the gap in marriage(the “Alone Together” book is witness to that), but very difficult, and probably impossible without (i) a great deal of other emotional support for the NT spouse from elsewhere and (ii) enough insight from the A spouse to accept the differences coupled with a willingness to, intellectually at least, translate from NT-speak to Aspie-speak. I think the Five Love Languages Men’s Edition is a good place to start with that …
It’s like trying to explain to someone blind from birth what “red” is.
Interesting article. I’m sorry that you felt ‘different’ while growing up.
However, I do take a serious exception to something you stated about Aspergers’ men: ” He will typically be not quite sure what the point of women is, except to have his babies and bring them up. ”
This is demonstrably not so. In my life - surrounded by more Aspies than neuro-typicals, I have encountered this attitude in NT men, not Aspies. Aspeis usually accept a person as a person. However, if a woman becomes obsessed whith ‘having babies’ - they will understand this as the all-encompassing obsession that is normal to them….and give her the room she needs to pursue it. That is being respectful and loving.
But I do hear your overall lament!
It seems irresponsible that people do not take charge of their emotions, and instead depend on a spouse to do this for them. It must be a horribly stifling, suffocating existence!
On the other hand, it must be difficult for people who have abnormally large amygdala, and so cannot experience emotions properly: their emotions can be so strong, they are overpowering. Their whole lives, lived in an emotional prison! Existence must seem so two-dimensional when emotions rob them of the ability to REALLY experience life…
Perhaps we can find cure for them!!! ;o)
” He will typically be not quite sure what the point of women is, except to have his babies and bring them up. ”
Xanthippa, you are absolutely right. A horrible generalisation, and one that does nothing to really distinguish “Aspies” (hate that term too) from NT men. It’s just that NT women (most woman) in my experience want a loving, emotional, reciprocal, relationship with their man before they want anything else, and men with Asperger’s may have trouble understanding what exactly she means by that … and she may equally have trouble articulating what exactly she means :).
You’re also right about living life flooded with emotions. I often wish I could transport my life to a left brain existence, or even have a holiday there, just for the peace and quiet.
Having said that, it is a subject that needs to be addressed. It is sad for either party in a couple to have their hopes, their expectations dashed. The world needs an Aspie-NT two-way dictionary, but I defy anyone to define “love” or “friend” in entirely rational terms, and to define “wife” in such terms is missing the point …
I’m interested, why is your life “surrounded” by more Aspies than NTs?
Thank you, ADifferentVoice!
I’m hoping that the second part of my comment (living with emotions) was understood to be ‘tongue-in-cheek’ - at least a little bit! It was intended that way. It is just frustrating that everyone seems to want to ‘cure’ Aspergers, even though we are perfectly happy to be this way - and see the prospect of being ‘cured’ and joining NT world with quite a trepidation and claustrophobia. It was meant to be a ‘humorous mirror’ sort of thing. Yes, I know, I often miss my target…
First, I am convinced that what we call ‘Aspergers’ is not an on/off switch: it is a continuum. So, a person cannot be 100% one or the other…. If we were to take ‘fat/skinny’ (without being socially judgemental, just for ‘presentation’ comparison) continuum - a ‘fat but not yet obese’ person would be more different from an ‘anorexic skinny’ person than from ‘just-passed-the-line-of-obesity’ person…. Similarly, the ‘amygdala size’ continuum has an arbitrary line - this side, you’re NT, that side, an Aspie.
And like you, I HATE the labels!!!! But I have not yet thought of a better descriptive, that would be understood….if you have suggestions, let’s toss them about and start using the best ones. They’re bound to catch on.
And yes, as you might have guessed, I have Aspergers. Never heard the term, however, until my older son was diagnosed. Then, during the ‘family sessions’ with the psychologist, I ‘flunked’ a pile of the tests they gave me….and became an ‘Aspie’. But, it’s OK. So is my husband, and so are both our sons.
My mother has some definite Aspie tendencies - especially not being able to relate to - or even comprehend that it could exist - something that never happened to herself. It was frustrating, growing up - if I got an ache or an illness SHE never had, she would simply not acknowledge that it could even exist, and the doctors were just nuts to be making it up. And so was I… At least, Aspies now are educated enough to know this occurs… My father is a techie - and a textbook Aspie.
My in-laws are mostly Aspies (or close to the line). My husand, an Aspie, is an engineer. And my education is in Physics…. Of course, I took my ‘art electives’ mostly in Math…. (though I did eventualy switch to taking ’sociology/anthropology of religion’ soft electives - but never fit in with the crowd there)…. Can you see why I might know more Aspies than NTs?
After high-school, the place I encountered most NT’s was when I started my own little company (yes, in a male-dominated field….I was THE woman in it - worldwide - in anything other than a HR or accounting departments). And most of my employees were NT’s. What a baffling world that was!!! But, after a bit, I was surprised at the depth of loyalty that MY (as in, protective, not possesive) people had for me!
Couple of weeks ago, I mentioned on my blog that I had Aspergers. Since then, I have received many requests to explain how I overcame some of my ‘pre-programmed’ limitations… Looking about for similar posts, I came across yours! :o)
I’ve been attempting to explain how ‘we’ see things, and perceive behaviours as well as ’stuff’ in general….and though this would be rather presumptuous, I would be flattered if I could add a footnote to the ‘Rosetta Stone’ of ‘Aspie-NT speak’!
Xanthippa,
You did not miss your target. But I meant my response - my emotions cause me a great deal of stress and I would love to have a month or so without them … I can actually look back to a time when I was working, surrounded by men, in an environment where schema were everything, almost binary in its simplicity. I was much less troubled in that environment, and friends who work (in similar environments) still say the same thing. For a few hours a day they switch brain sides and leave their emotions behind. For that reason (and others) I often wish I had a regular job.
What you said about your mother and pain struck a real chord. I was never ever more than “uncomfortable” in my mother’s eyes, though in mine I might be struck down by crippling pain. I used to think that it was because she was a pediatric nurse who had nursed the sickest of children and so saw everything in relative terms. Funny, writing that, I can (flash of understanding) see that that is exactly how she saw it …
I tracked down your blog (it wasn’t difficult!) and liked reading some of the other posts, so I have given you a post of your own here. I thought others might well like to read some of what you have written - I hope they will - and that you do not mind the publicity.
Thank you!
Thank you for this post. The best description I have found of what I have struggled with for the 25 years I have been married.
Adifferentvoice - why hate a term that the majority prefer? Have you ever visited http://www.wrongplanet.net ? A board focused on aspies . . .
And I wouldn’t describe the life of an aspie as being “emotionless.” Quite the opposite actually. Just because we don’t express them as openly as some doesn’t mean that we don’t feel them every bit as strongly. I know for a fact that experiencing others’ strong emotions can be overwhelming for us; so while I can’t speak for anyone else, I must say that I put a certain level of control on my emotions to keep from inconveniencing others.
The rule “treat others as you would like to be treated” needs to be rewritten into “treat others as THEY wish to be treated.” We treat NTs like we want to be treated, and they mark us as cold and unfeeling.
LCH,
I’ve had a look at your blog, and found lots of interesting things there. I particularly liked the end part of this post ….
http://lastcrazyhorn.wordpress.com/about/god-am-i-different-may-16-2004/
And I found this page which links to more pages about Aspergers (I link here so others can use it too):
http://lastcrazyhorn.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/welcome-to-aspie-land/
I also quote this from one of the sources you mention (from an article written by Carol Gray and Tony Attwood):
“If Asperger’s Syndrome was identified by observation of strengths and talents, it would no longer be in the DSM IV, nor would it be referred to as a syndrome. After all, a reference to someone with special strengths or talents does not use terms with negative connotations (it’s artist and poet, not Artistically Arrogant or Poetically Preoccupied), nor does it attach someone’s proper name to the word syndrome (it’s vocalist or soloist, not Sinatra’s Syndrome). Focusing on strengths requires shedding the former diagnostic term, Asperger’s Syndrome, for a new term. The authors feel that Aspie, used in self-reference by Liane Holliday Wiley in her new book, Pretending to be Normal (1999), is a term that seems right at home among it’s talent-based counterparts: soloist, genius, aspie, dancer. With fading DSM potential, the authors submit a description of “aspie” for placement in a much needed but currently non-existent Manual of Discoveries about People (MDP I)”
Perhaps, then, I should feel less diffident about using the term. My reservations were an unwillingness to give the same label to a host of very disparate people (though we all do that all the time - think “British”, “Christian”, “lawyer” or “Turkish”, “Muslim”, “doctor” ) and a worry that it carries with it negative associations.
You end with this …
“We treat NTs like we want to be treated, and they mark us as cold and unfeeling.”
Yes, often that is because they do not realise that you are Aspies, and - judged by NT criteria - you may appear as you say. Emotions such as “gratitude”, “compassion” (not pity), “love” (even), “remorse”, “forgiveness” are all very different in an NT world. Though I am not saying that you do not necessarily experience them, just that you may experience them differently. Love (which is at the root of all those other emotions I mention), for example, for me is more than being “in love”, it is a long-term stable state of outpouring to another person, a going out from me and an inclination towards them, caring for them, worrying about them, wanting to make them happy, and I’m not sure that Aspies see it like that. That is also how I expect to be loved, which is where the rub comes in.
I understand what you are saying entirely, but I also know why it leaves NTs feeling sad and unloved.
Why not write a post on your excellent blog about how “Aspies” understand “love”, what it involves for the other person, and how they should read your language ?… that would help a huge number of people.
Oh, I think Aspies experience the feelings of ‘love’ exactly as you describe them.
The difference, I think, comes in at ‘how’ you express ‘love’. Sorry to use a cliche, but…
“If you love something, let it go. Then, if it does not come back to you, it was never meant to be!”
This, I think, sums up Aspie attitudes towards ‘love’ very well. Nothing will send an Aspie ‘packing’ faster than ‘emotional smothering’. And, being fair, Aspies will do nothing to emotionally smother their mates!!!
We Aspies like rules and ‘understanding’ in relationships. IF we MARRY someone, and we PROMISE to hold them in a ’special’ position, then THAT IS the defined state. Any additional pressure on the mate would be ’smothering’ them - and Aspies are not likely to fall into that trap!
After all, you have already agreed on a life-long partnership. Why belabour the point? THAT would be disrespectful, because it would diminish your faith in your partner’s commitment!
Xanthippa,
Very interesting. Having thought about what you have written, you make it sound as if Aspies suffer from none of the insecurities that beset the rest of us (that we are not good enough, attractive enough, funny enough, smart enough). How wonderful that would be.
For it is our insecurities that, on the one hand, often produce negative emotions such as jealousy, anger (often, because we actually feel hurt) and which lead us to manifest, that is, make obvious, those more positive emotions such as gratitude, compassion, love and so on.
For example, saying “thank you” when somebody gives me a present, is a mixture of many things. But most of all it signals to the present giver success - it is, if you like, a gift back to the giver. Presumably the present giver set out to give pleasure to the recipient, and the recipient in saying “thank you” tells the (insecure) present giver that the goal was achieved. But it would be the recipient’s own imaginative experience of the giver’s insecurity that would prompt the “thank you”… or am I over-thinking this?
I’m not sure that an Aspie would naturally see the point of saying “thank you” even if they learn that it is expected. Again, correct me if I am wrong …
I think I am following what you have said. And I’m not sure what to think about it. I am a slow thinker, so this may take me a little to process (my kids say I’m a slow thinker because I cross-reference way too many things) :0)
Aspies feel emotions, just like everyone else. Let’s just get that out of the way. And this includes positive as well as negative ones.
For example, I have incredible insecurity issues. For most of my life, so much of what I have said or done had been twisted and misunderstood (my POV - of course, reality suggests that I simply inapropriately expressed my intent) that I have striven to OVERDO this communication thing…and have somewhat succeeded. Yes, I can write a bunch, and often get my point across - so that makes me happy. But I am also realistic enough to know that I don’t get my point across much of the time - and that makes me very afraid to actually show people ’stuff’ I’ve written.
In blogs, it is not so bad - I can have a chance to ‘correct’ things when people point out to me I’ve missed my point. But I have also written fiction - yet will not likely ever show it to anyone but 2-3 trusted friends.
Does that make sense?
And as for the situations you have described above: I can see how it can APPEAR that we have no insecurities and so on. But it is not the case. Let’s take the example of a relationship.
I get married. Before entering a marriage, I have ideas, very definite ideas, of what the partnership entaisl, roles etc. It is important to marry someone whose ideas on the rules of marriage, and your roles in it, are congruent. Or, at least, that you work out rules ahead that you both agree on - or you will simly be setting yourself up to fail.
But, once the rules are established, I will do my best to fulfill my part. And of course I have fears, am I not doing it right, is there going to be problem, will my husband meet someone prettier/younger/smarter/neater who makes him fall in love with her, what if !!!!! But these are MY problems. Demonstrating them outwardly would burden my husband with my baggage. That would not be a very loving thing to do!!!
Plus, by clearly and plainly expecting my husband to fulfil his part of the partnership, without all this extraneous stuff, I am actively demonstrating my trust in him.
That is a good thing. You can only trust (in the good way) people you respect and love. So this is also a demonstration of love. Constantly doing things to ‘win the other person over’ implies that ‘they are not there’ - in other words, they are not loving you. It accuses them of not fulfilling their part of the partnership.
OK, I am exagerrating - to get the point across. Plus, most of the time, this is not ‘reasoned out’ step by step (though I have met people for whom it is) - yet it is somewhat implied. And yes, Aspies do learn that ’social exchanges’ have rules and are a language of their own. It’s just a silly language, whose point (to some of us - or to certain degrees) is really opposite to common sense. (Yes, we have a weird and unusual conception of ‘common sense’).
You raised the emotion ‘gratitude’. I cannot stand when people feel ‘gratitude’ towards me!!!! ‘Grattitude’ is, deep down inside, a form of ‘happy guilt’.
I did what I did because I wanted to do something nice and or helpful. Enjoy it. I would not have done it if I did not want to. And I meant it to be a nice thing for the recipient(s).
When people exhibit ‘gratitude’, they exhibit ‘emotional obligation’ to the person to whom they are ‘grateful’, and attempt to ‘do stuff’ for them - not because they want to, but because they think they have to. And if you do not ‘accept’ their ’stuff’ (be it object or emotion or whatever) you are made out to be the bad person.
But they did not give this to you because they wanted to be nice, or because they wanted you to be happy. They do it so that they can no longer feel guilty for having accepted ‘it’. And giving me stuff just to get out of feeling guilt is not being nice to me. So, burdening me with their gratitude is kind of rude of them, and I will make sure not to ever do anything to make them act this way towards me again.
Again, I am exagerrating for clarity’s sake, but not that much.
I guess I am saying that positive emotions are best expressed by acceptance, so that one does not smother. Negative emotions are best dealt with internally, so that you don’t burden your loved ones. Also, I think we may have a very different idea about what emotions and/or feelings are ‘positive’ and which are ‘negative’.
Does this make sense?
There is another blog, by a female Aspie, called Big Liberty (at wordpress). She has not written too much on this, but says she intends to. I am curious if her experiences are congruent with mine. If I find she has written about it, I’ll link to it, but mention it here because I thought you might like to check out her blog.
‘Gratitude’ is, deep down inside, a form of ‘happy guilt’
We disagree here. That is not what gratitude is for me. It is something very different. At least I am talking about naturally occurring gratitude, not forced gratitude. People may make you feel obliged, as if you HAVE to be grateful. That, I agree, is quite horrible and to be resisted. If somebody does something for me, or gives me something, there is absolutely no obligation on me to feel grateful. None whatsoever …
Gratitude is a form of love, often agape. Often if someone does something for me, or gives me something it is a way of them expressing their love for me (read The Five Love Languages - these are two of them). In turn I may feel overwhelmed by their love (shown by the acts or gifts) and it will provoke in me a quite natural love for them, which I call gratitude. Sometimes that burst of love from me will occur many years after the event - I may not have realised at the time that it was indeed a gift of love.
Again, an example. We enjoyed a wonderful Greek Easter with our friends at the weekend. They were very generous hosts and made us feel very comfortable and at home. I wanted to thank them, not because I had to, or because they expected it, but because I felt touched that they had asked us, and wanted to show how much we had enjoyed ourselves and appreciated their hospitality.
Gratitude is something freely given, not demanded.
Gratitude, deep down, is a form of love. In my book.
I’m going to be away for a few days now, but thank you again for your comment, and the link to the other blog. I know several people have read these exchanges and found them useful. I really think that there is room for a book on the subject, half written by an Aspie, half written by an NT, covering all the major emotions. For I can see your point of view, and respect it, but it is very different from mine.
Hi I wondered what the NT wife has been struggling with all these years. I appear to have an Aspergers husband and I have struggled in an unhappy marriage for 5 years, I knew that there was something wrong with him from the start
but had never heard of Aspergers til I contacted Relate in Derby. Everything I said ticked all the boxes. I am, yet again at the point of leaving. I hate being with him but he can be so nice ! I have to keep everything a certain way. Eggshells. I darent ask him to do certain things or he loses his temper. Simple questions like ‘Are you going to watch the whole of this programme can cause him to get angry and accuse me of preventing him from watching what he wants to watch.’ When I ask him why he got angry he has said many times that I asked him in the wrong tone of voice ! He is really weird ! I never get anywhere with him ! Its so hard sometimes I just want to die ! to get out of this confusing, quagmire. It is so exhausting.
Bev, Relate in Derby sounds like a good place for both of you to start sorting things out. I have enormous respect for Relate-trained counsellors. If he won’t go with you … then I guess he doesn’t want to help make things better for both of you and why should you stay in a situation which you clearly find intolerable? I’ve become quite dogmatic about this over the years - that and giving everyone the chance to make things better. I cannot think of any good reason for not going to Relate if your relationship is in trouble. Don’t do all the work yourself.
I’ll happily put you and NT Wife in touch if NT Wife agrees (and sees this).
Thank you so much. I seperated from my husband two months ago after 10 years of feeling emotionally starved by his ‘unreasonable’ behaviour. And yet I knew he did love me, so was unable to understand why he was like that with me.
Two weeks ago I had a lightbulb moment when I saw him objectively throught he eyes of a stranger for the first time and he practically had a neon flashing sign saying ‘aspie’ over his head. I have been reading up since then and can tick so many boxes I am convinced this is him. He is Aspie.
Now I hope to find a way of suggesting this to him, in the hope that he can also gain a greater understanding of himself and of why i left. He does not understand AT ALL. I promised didn’t I? Till death do us part. So why am I gone?
Anyway this is a geat site and has been of great help to me. If anyone has any advice on how I could begin broaching the subject with him so he could seek support / diagnosis that would be really helpful. I am also interested in being put in touch with anyone is similar situations…
Thanks so much.
[Ruth, sorry this took so long to appear. I've been away and those who haven't commented before have their comments held for "moderation" the first time. I'll happily pass on email details if Bev would like.]
Bev,
you sound so like me. It would be great to get in touch maybe?
Ruth
It’s now coming up to 2 years since I left him for every reason you described in your post.
It’s still a hell of a lot to get over though. I’m still finding myself again.
Your post was most accurate - thank you.
Isn’t aspergers just extreme maleness? The polarisation that is male and female surely defines this? Females with a more “male” brain are often aspergers.
It is just as things are - and has a function - single minded pursuit of a goal - avoiding all emotional detractions is very male - and typically aspergers.
Look at the man who discovered vitamins(Hopkins) - who else would have recorded what they fed their hens in such detail - look at Madam Curie and radium, look at Bill Gates. Nature’s goal in all these cases is to advance the development of the human species. All these people in their own way have.And Mme Curie was probably aspergers.
The male and female brain are so different in function - the male brain is larger, but the female brain has many more connections.
This is why women can multi-task - the messages flo to and fro across both hemispheres. They don’t in the male brain. The extreme male is the loner, the single minded explorer, who will mate in accordance with nature - but won’t philosophise about love and emotions.
We are the sum total of our brains and our genes.
Well hello Loissy!!
I was wondering when someone would step in, to redress the balance, to remind us what we owe those who have extreme schematising brains, and how impoverished the world would be if they had not dedicated their massive brains in their single-minded way to their chosen pursuits.
But this post has attracted more comments than any other (I think), and that is because empathisers and schematisers don’t agree on some basic vocabulary, on probably the most essential word in whatever language we speak. Love. Neither is right, neither has the monopoly of all the answers, but the disjunction between the two definitions (translated into action) is clearly extremely painful. Because these schematising men tend to be very able in a way which the world recognises, they tend to have more power than their empathising partners, and it is fairly easy, therefore, to reduce those partners to shells of their former selves, their self esteem shot to pieces as the schematisers insist in their mind-blind way that it is they who are right always.
Have you read this, btw?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Brain
The Intrepid Explorer swears by it, and lends it out to friends who could do with some inside knowledge :).
And more affirmation of “aspies” here (scroll down to the end) : http://www.thegraycenter.org/sectionsdetails.cfm?id=38
And, now, how about that swim?